Tone and community guidelines

Hi,

I want to support a vibrant community for the Lucee list but at times the
tone and interactions on here are really not acceptable. Usually, this is a
handful of people being louder than most.

The Association and its members should not be fielding complaints regarding
this list or spending effort in that regard.

I want this list to be approachable to all contributors, new and old, and
that people of all levels be that:

  1. English as a first language
  2. Experience of CFML and programming in general
  3. Confidence in writing or self-confidence possibly.

That everyone is comfortable contributing and are not going to get shot
down.

Like all communities we decide the environment we create.

I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code of
conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know how
to behave.

I also don’t think this should be a moderated list but can I ask that if
threads turn into an off topic discussion involving just a few individuals
that you take the discussion elsewhere.

If people leave the list or put the list on digest because they want to
filter some of this stuff then to me it’s not just them that loses out.

In general terms, I feel really positive about Lucee, the progress and how
the community has rallied around it.

Cheers

Alex–
Alex Skinner
Managing Director

Pixl8 Interactive, 3 Tun Yard, Peardon Street, London
SW8 3HT, United Kingdom

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+2

I would add to your list:

  1. No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words. This is a professional forum
    and users should behave accordingly.

Igal Sapir

Lucee Core Developer
Lucee.org http://lucee.org/On 2/20/2015 9:30 AM, Alex Skinner wrote:

Hi,

I want to support a vibrant community for the Lucee list but at times
the tone and interactions on here are really not acceptable. Usually,
this is a handful of people being louder than most.

The Association and its members should not be fielding complaints
regarding this list or spending effort in that regard.

I want this list to be approachable to all contributors, new and old,
and that people of all levels be that:

  1. English as a first language
  2. Experience of CFML and programming in general
  3. Confidence in writing or self-confidence possibly.

That everyone is comfortable contributing and are not going to get
shot down.

Like all communities we decide the environment we create.

I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code
of conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and
know how to behave.

I also don’t think this should be a moderated list but can I ask that
if threads turn into an off topic discussion involving just a few
individuals that you take the discussion elsewhere.

If people leave the list or put the list on digest because they want
to filter some of this stuff then to me it’s not just them that loses out.

In general terms, I feel really positive about Lucee, the progress and
how the community has rallied around it.

Cheers

Alex


Alex Skinner
Managing Director

Pixl8 Interactive, 3 Tun Yard, Peardon Street, London
SW8 3HT, United Kingdom

T: +44 [0] 845 260 0726• W: www.pixl8.co.uk
http://www.pixl8.co.uk• E: info@pixl8.co.uk mailto:info@pixl8.co.uk

Follow us on: Facebook http://www.facebook.com/pixl8 Twitter
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in reliance on it or any attachments. Instead, please email it back to
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+1Am Freitag, 20. Februar 2015 schrieb Igal @ Lucee.org :

+2

I would add to your list:

  1. No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words. This is a professional forum
    and users should behave accordingly.

Igal Sapir

Lucee Core Developer
Lucee.org http://lucee.org/
On 2/20/2015 9:30 AM, Alex Skinner wrote:

Hi,

I want to support a vibrant community for the Lucee list but at times
the tone and interactions on here are really not acceptable. Usually, this
is a handful of people being louder than most.

The Association and its members should not be fielding complaints
regarding this list or spending effort in that regard.

I want this list to be approachable to all contributors, new and old,
and that people of all levels be that:

  1. English as a first language
  2. Experience of CFML and programming in general
  3. Confidence in writing or self-confidence possibly.

That everyone is comfortable contributing and are not going to get shot
down.

Like all communities we decide the environment we create.

I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code of
conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know how
to behave.

I also don’t think this should be a moderated list but can I ask that if
threads turn into an off topic discussion involving just a few individuals
that you take the discussion elsewhere.

If people leave the list or put the list on digest because they want to
filter some of this stuff then to me it’s not just them that loses out.

In general terms, I feel really positive about Lucee, the progress and
how the community has rallied around it.

Cheers

Alex


Alex Skinner
Managing Director

Pixl8 Interactive, 3 Tun Yard, Peardon Street, London
SW8 3HT, United Kingdom

T: +44 [0] 845 260 0726• W: www.pixl8.co.uk• E: info@pixl8.co.uk
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,‘cvml’,‘info@pixl8.co.uk’);>

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Agreed.

Alex,

A few comments and questions, offered constructively:

a. If there are to be guidelines, they will need to be captured and
presented somewhere in order for community members or potential community
members to know that such guidelines exist. I don’t think it is safe to
assume that everyone will simply “know how to behave”. Summarizing them at
the top of the welcome page for the group, for instance, would seem to me
to be one logical place for that.

b. Recognize that there are going to be varying scales for many of us where
what some participants might feel to be off-topic, offensive, or profane is
not considered so by others.

c. “English as a first language”… does this refer to the communication
here or to the participants? I think I know the intent, but the way it is
phrased in your post leaves it open to interpretation. If we are establish
guidelines, we’ll want them to be as clear and unambiguous as we can.

d. Would you elaborate on your #3? I’m not sure what you are pointing
toward.

e. RE your comment about the effort of developing a code of conduct: that’s
effectively what you are proposing here, at some level. I see two benefits
to that effort. First, it shows people we care enough to take seriously
making sure people understand the expectations regarding how people conduct
themselves within the community. Second, it provides a clear set of
expectations of behavior and how behavior deemed unacceptable will be
addressed. I see value in value in both.

f. If there are guidelines and if they are to be real, the list moderators
(or “shepherds”, perhaps, as I don’t see them moderating content under most
situations) will need to be responsible for timely intervention and
providing guidance to participants (out of band, in some cases) as content
and community members drift toward or step over those guidelines. That can
be a challenging and sometimes unpleasant responsibility. Who would those
moderators be and are they willing to take that on?On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 10:30:06 AM UTC-7, Alex Skinner wrote:

Hi,

I want to support a vibrant community for the Lucee list but at times the
tone and interactions on here are really not acceptable. Usually, this is a
handful of people being louder than most.

The Association and its members should not be fielding complaints
regarding this list or spending effort in that regard.

I want this list to be approachable to all contributors, new and old, and
that people of all levels be that:

  1. English as a first language
  2. Experience of CFML and programming in general
  3. Confidence in writing or self-confidence possibly.

That everyone is comfortable contributing and are not going to get shot
down.

Like all communities we decide the environment we create.

I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code of
conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know how
to behave.

I also don’t think this should be a moderated list but can I ask that if
threads turn into an off topic discussion involving just a few individuals
that you take the discussion elsewhere.

If people leave the list or put the list on digest because they want to
filter some of this stuff then to me it’s not just them that loses out.

In general terms, I feel really positive about Lucee, the progress and how
the community has rallied around it.

Cheers

Alex


Alex Skinner
Managing Director

Pixl8 Interactive, 3 Tun Yard, Peardon Street, London
SW8 3HT, United Kingdom

T: +44 [0] 845 260 0726• W: www.pixl8.co.uk• E: in...@pixl8.co.uk
<javascript:>

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do not read, print, re-transmit, store or act in reliance on it or any
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I belong to a group called API Craft and they have a simple credo: think
twice and email once. I think that is pretty good advice.

Rick>>

I certainly wasn’t. I was created fully formed.

Mark Drew

  • Sent by typing with my thumbs.> On 22 Feb 2015, at 08:11, Adam Cameron <@Adam_Cameron1> wrote:

On 22 February 2015 at 20:53, Mark Drew <@Mark_Drew> wrote:
that includes kids. Kids. Don’t swear. Don’t do as I do.

I seriously wonder if any adult who thinks this is even remotely an issue was ever actually a kid.


Adam

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You’re reaching. Those are ancient “blue” laws. I believe that stealing a
horse in the State of New York is still “technically” a hanging offense as
well. Most laws, do not automatically sunset and so reside on the books as
vestiges of a bygone era, they’re not really enforced and if/when some hick
sheriff tries to do so, it’s thrown out/found to be unconstitutional/void
as against public policy/etc.

Like programming languages, most bodies of law could really use a good
practice of deprecation. Here in the US, the law is either sunset after a
period of time, or gets officially overturned when some idiot tries to
enforce it and the courts call BS.

Over the air communication in the US is still monitored/overseen by the FCC
and so that is a different story, though not applicable here…On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 9:40:44 AM UTC-8, Steven Durette wrote:

OT but because you asked:

Some anti-profanity laws were passed to shield women and children from
foul-mouthed men. Consider this Michigan law:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(52sdhkeax1lvb0bblqoogr45))/mileg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-750-337&highlight=750.337 “Any
person who shall use any indecent, immoral, obscene, vulgar or insulting
language in the presence or hearing of any woman or child shall be guilty
of a misdemeanor.”

Another Oklahoma law
http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69426 warns,
“If any person shall utter or speak any obscene or lascivious language or
word in any public place, or in the presence of females, or in the presence
of children under ten (10) years of age, he shall be liable to a fine of
not more than One Hundred Dollars ($100.00), or imprisonment for not more
than thirty (30) days, or both.”

Taken from
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/curses-blasphemy-profanity-laws-still-on-the-books

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 22, 2015, at 12:28 AM, Adam Cameron <dac...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote:

On Sunday, 22 February 2015 18:13:11 UTC+13, Steven Durette wrote:

In some places it is actually illegal to speak profanities in front of
children.

Interesting! I would love to see some reference to that to see how it
possibly came about. Nothing surprises me about what they’ll legislate
about in the States though.

One last thought that my great grandmother taught me was that profanity
is only used by a mind too weak to logically defend a position.

Oh yeah. A lot of ppl trot-out that nonsense. Generally ppl who can’t make
a case with logic and facts, ironically. And is itself - obviously - an ad
hominem attack (although such a limp one, I don’t think it really matters.
The only real risk is spraining one’s eyeballs from rolling them too much
;-).

I suspect the “off topic” klaxon is warming up though, so perhaps we’d
better move on from this. Serious - on topic! - question… is it OK to
have off topic conversations (because I think this is interesting) with
other community members here if they’re marked as off-topic?


Adam


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**** snip

It’s the invective intent people sometimes reflect by using “bad language” that is the issue. Not the words themselves. The words themselves are often very effective modifiers in a fairly flat communications medium. As long as they’re not used mean-spiritedly, what’s the actual problem?
**** end snip
The actual problem is that you are making assumptions about the audience. The current push in the United States is to get kids programming and therefore you can expect some young ones to possibly join the lists if they start programming in Lucee. In some places it is actually illegal to speak profanities in front of children.
Oh and many businesses consider profanity to be in-professional.
One last thought that my great grandmother taught me was that profanity is only used by a mind too weak to logically defend a position.Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2015, at 9:13 PM, Adam Cameron <@Adam_Cameron1> wrote:

On Saturday, 21 February 2015 06:46:29 UTC+13, Igal wrote:
+2

I would add to your list:

  1. No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words. This is a professional forum and users should behave accordingly.

That’s getting a bit nanny-state, I think? It also presupposes there’s some sort of inverse correlation between profanity and professionalism.

I would say it’s perhaps unacceptable to make ad hominem attacks on people (and we’re both guilty as charged there, eh, Igal? ;-), but - seriously - ppl who pretend to blush at words they perceive to be naughty perhaps ought to learn to deal with that themselves. This also is part of living in a grown-up professional world. Their position is not automatically correct. Nor just because they have a position on something does it mean that everyone else automatically has to take that position too. This is something ppl don’t seem to “get” sometimes.

It’s the invective intent people sometimes reflect by using “bad language” that is the issue. Not the words themselves. The words themselves are often very effective modifiers in a fairly flat communications medium. As long as they’re not used mean-spiritedly, what’s the actual problem?

On the other hand, there’s quite a lot of passive-aggressive loosely ad hominem subtext going on in forums too (indeed, in this very thread to a trivial degree). However people make sure to express that without an overtly inflammatory tone so as to be able to crawl away going “what? Me? No, that’s not what I meant” when clearly it bloody was what they meant. This is also poor form, anti-social, not to mention quite dishonest and disingenuous and actually should be considered something to censure. That’s a bit trickier than going “no swear words” though, innit?

NB: my comment here is more based on being fascinated by the forum dynamic on this sort of topic (not this forum in particular, just the whole social dynamic). I don’t personally perceive there’s a case to answer to on anyone’s part at all, however I think having house rules are a good idea to make people feel better about things. I also completely think you’re entitled to your opinion, Igal. As we must be getting used to by now… I just don’t happen to agree with it :wink:


Adam

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Note that whilst nearly all CoCs address “sexual language” (in addition to
a long list of specific forms of harassment), they do not typically include
swearing or profanity because that, in and of itself, is not harassment.

It was the inclusion of “No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words” as a
discussion point that made me want to raise this, especially since several
non-US members objected to that inclusion. As an ex-pat Brit, now an
American citizen, I’m with Adam, Kai, Mark — profanity in and of itself
should not be considered unacceptable behavior, as long as the tone and
intent is not exclusionary.

Sean

I am an American, born and raised, and I am vehemently opposed to such a
rule. In addition to everything Kai, Adam, Mark, and Sean have said, it
boils down to this:

  • What’s the list?
  • Who wrote it?
  • Why is a word that doesn’t bother me (or you, or you, or you) on the
    list?
  • Why is a word that does bother me (or you, or you, or you) not on the
    list?

Simply stated, any such list is bullshit and has no place anywhere but a
nanny state or perhaps some strict religious structure. I would certainly
hope that this community would be neither of those.On Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Sean Corfield <@Sean_Corfield> wrote:

that includes kids. Kids. Don’t swear. Don’t do as I do.

I seriously wonder if any adult who thinks this is even remotely an issue
was ever actually a kid.On 22 February 2015 at 20:53, Mark Drew <@Mark_Drew> wrote:


Adam

Apparently that wouldn’t happen because of:

“Micha is nice and so we are nice”?On 22 February 2015 at 12:10, Nando Breiter <@Nando_Breiter> wrote:

If I joined a Ruby mailing list, not knowing a thing about Ruby but having a
desire to learn, and I encountered a lot of edgy, competitive banter (likely
from a small clique of members), I would feel excluded in the sense that I
would have no idea at all how to join in to such banter, and I also would
not feel welcome to ask my newbie questions.

I think it is important to remember that for many folks here, English is a
foreign language. I can tell you from first hand experience as an American
living in the Italian speaking area of Switzerland that when folks here
start slinging barbed comments about me around in Italian, which happens
often, I have no idea how to respond, and feel confused as to the true
intent. Yes, they want to suggest that I’m an idiot, an outsider, a
foreigner, but even if they think it is just friendly joking, it comes
across as quite hostile, and it hurts. Luckily, I don’t have to deal with
that over an email list, and on top of that try to work with these people,
which would be all the more difficult!

On top of that, CFML, or in the future, the new Lucee dialect, may also be
a language folks on this list don’t know completely, well, or at all.

If I joined a Ruby mailing list, not knowing a thing about Ruby but having
a desire to learn, and I encountered a lot of edgy, competitive banter
(likely from a small clique of members), I would feel excluded in the sense
that I would have no idea at all how to join in to such banter, and I also
would not feel welcome to ask my newbie questions.

So I think the question of tone is this: Do we want to create an inclusive
international community around Lucee, or an exclusive clique. To me, I
don’t think we can afford to be an exclusive clique. We’ll go extinct that
way.

And I don’t think this is about free speech. If that’s the ideal, then
everyone should be allowed to freely express their opinions, and sling
their most barbed and colloquial arrows, in their native languages.

It’s about being intelligent regarding inclusiveness, over the limited
medium of email (rather than face to face communication), in a common
language that is foreign to many, regarding quite a complex subject, so
that Lucee has a better chance to thrive.

Aria Media Sagl
Via Rompada 40
6987 Caslano
Switzerland

+41 (0)91 600 9601
+41 (0)76 303 4477 cell
skype: ariamediaOn Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 9:43 AM, Adam Cameron <@Adam_Cameron1> wrote:

On 22 February 2015 at 21:40, Mark Drew <@Mark_Drew> wrote:

I certainly wasn’t. I was created fully formed.

And they definitely broke the mold before that one.


Adam


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+2

I would add to your list:

  1. No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words. This is a professional forum
    and users should behave accordingly.

That’s getting a bit nanny-state, I think? It also presupposes there’s some
sort of inverse correlation between profanity and professionalism.

I would say it’s perhaps unacceptable to make ad hominem attacks on people
(and we’re both guilty as charged there, eh, Igal? ;-), but - seriously -
ppl who pretend to blush at words they perceive to be naughty perhaps ought
to learn to deal with that themselves. This also is part of living in a
grown-up professional world. Their position is not automatically correct.
Nor just because they have a position on something does it mean that
everyone else automatically has to take that position too. This is
something ppl don’t seem to “get” sometimes.

It’s the invective intent people sometimes reflect by using “bad language”
that is the issue. Not the words themselves. The words themselves are often
very effective modifiers in a fairly flat communications medium. As long as
they’re not used mean-spiritedly, what’s the actual problem?

On the other hand, there’s quite a lot of passive-aggressive loosely ad
hominem subtext going on in forums too (indeed, in this very thread to a
trivial degree). However people make sure to express that without an
overtly inflammatory tone so as to be able to crawl away going “what? Me?
No, that’s not what I meant” when clearly it bloody was what they meant.
This is also poor form, anti-social, not to mention quite dishonest and
disingenuous and actually should be considered something to censure.
That’s a bit trickier than going “no swear words” though, innit?

NB: my comment here is more based on being fascinated by the forum dynamic
on this sort of topic (not this forum in particular, just the whole social
dynamic). I don’t personally perceive there’s a case to answer to on
anyone’s part at all, however I think having house rules are a good idea to
make people feel better about things. I also completely think you’re
entitled to your opinion, Igal. As we must be getting used to by now… I
just don’t happen to agree with it ;-)On Saturday, 21 February 2015 06:46:29 UTC+13, Igal wrote:


Adam

I’m tempted to say that if one can’t deal with someone using “profanities” like for instance “for fuck’s sake” in an appropriate general context, those people could just read over the respective expression and move on.

I do agree with Adam, nanny-state is exactly the right expression for the suggested rule:

"4. No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words. This is a professional forum and users should behave accordingly.”

I do understand that some people might be offended by using expressions like the above in their culture. That’s fair enough. However, please realise that it’s perfectly fine and accepted in various other cultures to use — for instance — the above, or a more general “fuck” (Sorry if this has already offended someone).

My question is: How much emphasis should be put on a rule for dealing with some people from some cultural contexts being offended by something being said here.

I’ll take it to the other extreme: There are countries in which females have no rights and are not allowed to participate in the work force or in large parts of society. If someone from such a country was to subscribe to this list — would we then start to remove all females from this list — because having females around might offend them?

Seriously people, there’s a thing such as freedom of speech - and yes, a community and as such a mailing list can give itself rules, nothing against that. But it can be as simple as:

  1. Don’t insult any person directly
  2. Don’t insult anyone’s religion or gender or sexual orientation etc.
  3. Don’t be a total dick

But that’s about all it needs.

Kai> **** snip

It’s the invective intent people sometimes reflect by using “bad language” that is the issue. Not the words themselves. The words themselves are often very effective modifiers in a fairly flat communications medium. As long as they’re not used mean-spiritedly, what’s the actual problem?
**** end snip
The actual problem is that you are making assumptions about the audience. The current push in the United States is to get kids programming and therefore you can expect some young ones to possibly join the lists if they start programming in Lucee. In some places it is actually illegal to speak profanities in front of children.
Oh and many businesses consider profanity to be in-professional.
One last thought that my great grandmother taught me was that profanity is only used by a mind too weak to logically defend a position.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2015, at 9:13 PM, Adam Cameron <@Adam_Cameron1> wrote:

On Saturday, 21 February 2015 06:46:29 UTC+13, Igal wrote:
+2

I would add to your list:

  1. No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words. This is a professional forum and users should behave accordingly.

That’s getting a bit nanny-state, I think? It also presupposes there’s some sort of inverse correlation between profanity and professionalism.

I would say it’s perhaps unacceptable to make ad hominem attacks on people (and we’re both guilty as charged there, eh, Igal? ;-), but - seriously - ppl who pretend to blush at words they perceive to be naughty perhaps ought to learn to deal with that themselves. This also is part of living in a grown-up professional world. Their position is not automatically correct. Nor just because they have a position on something does it mean that everyone else automatically has to take that position too. This is something ppl don’t seem to “get” sometimes.

It’s the invective intent people sometimes reflect by using “bad language” that is the issue. Not the words themselves. The words themselves are often very effective modifiers in a fairly flat communications medium. As long as they’re not used mean-spiritedly, what’s the actual problem?

On the other hand, there’s quite a lot of passive-aggressive loosely ad hominem subtext going on in forums too (indeed, in this very thread to a trivial degree). However people make sure to express that without an overtly inflammatory tone so as to be able to crawl away going “what? Me? No, that’s not what I meant” when clearly it bloody was what they meant. This is also poor form, anti-social, not to mention quite dishonest and disingenuous and actually should be considered something to censure. That’s a bit trickier than going “no swear words” though, innit?

NB: my comment here is more based on being fascinated by the forum dynamic on this sort of topic (not this forum in particular, just the whole social dynamic). I don’t personally perceive there’s a case to answer to on anyone’s part at all, however I think having house rules are a good idea to make people feel better about things. I also completely think you’re entitled to your opinion, Igal. As we must be getting used to by now… I just don’t happen to agree with it :wink:


Adam

That is awesome :slight_smile: I like it.

Mark Drew

  • Sent by typing with my thumbs.> On 22 Feb 2015, at 19:30, Julian Halliwell <@Julian_Halliwell> wrote:

Apparently that wouldn’t happen because of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINASWAN

“Micha is nice and so we are nice”?

On 22 February 2015 at 12:10, Nando Breiter <@Nando_Breiter> wrote:
If I joined a Ruby mailing list, not knowing a thing about Ruby but having a
desire to learn, and I encountered a lot of edgy, competitive banter (likely
from a small clique of members), I would feel excluded in the sense that I
would have no idea at all how to join in to such banter, and I also would
not feel welcome to ask my newbie questions.


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I agree with the points said by Kai. I think the groups needs no moderation, until it does. From previous experience with a couple of characters in a previous incarnation of these forums, 99.99% of the time you don’t need it until someone oversteps the obvious boundary.

With regards to pinning the community guidelines I think Google groups has stopped allowing that.

I am not sure how we will handle it with Lucee but before we had community moderators (Todd Rafferty) that did a great job. Maybe if/when it is needed someone can be appointed again.

WRT off topic. If a conversation is off topic but beneficial to the community, great, let’s keep it . But (again) we had questions about how to do CSS and fix JavaScript code what was better placed elsewhere that should be marked as off topic (this was in the old Railo group). It’s all about the signal vs noise ratio IMO

Profanity. I am fucking torn on this bloody issue.
As long as you are not insulting someone it should be ok. But we want to be as inclusive as possible, that includes kids. Kids. Don’t swear. Don’t do as I do.
But we all have to agree that this isn’t a pub. It’s an office type environment (virtual as it may be) and a community that accepts everyone (including fledgling developers) and treats everyone with respect.

Mark Drew

  • Sent by typing with my thumbs.> On 22 Feb 2015, at 06:35, Kai Koenig <@Kai_Koenig> wrote:
  1. Don’t insult any person directly
  2. Don’t insult anyone’s religion or gender or sexual orientation etc.
  3. Don’t be a total dick

But that’s about all it needs.

I certainly wasn’t. I was created fully formed.

And they definitely broke the mold before that one.On 22 February 2015 at 21:40, Mark Drew <@Mark_Drew> wrote:

Adam

Very cute but I’ve seen some pretty bad explosions from the Ruby community so, policy or not, it doesn’t always solve the problem.

I’ve stayed out of this thread so far because it seems well-intentioned and “everyone should play nice” is a good goal for a community. I nearly jumped in at the “no code of conduct” point but as others have said, the proposed behavioral guidelines really are a code of conduct and the core of most of the codes of conduct out there are about two things:

  • Stating what is unacceptable behavior
  • Stating what, if anything, will be done about someone violating the CoC

It’s usually the second bullet that takes time but without it, the policy is just “empty words”. A few people have hinted that moderation is what will be used to address the second point (insofar as putting a “violator” under moderation and ensuring future posts from them follow the guidelines).

That’s all very reasonable but, as the discussion over swearing has shown, this will need to be written down and posted somewhere prominent so that list members — and the community at large — know what’s acceptable and what is not.

FWIW, I deal with CoCs quite a bit via conferences: I’m the person who introduced the concept to dev.Objective() — formerly cf.Objective(). I also try to stay informed about diversity issues (attending events like AlterConf, following Model View Culture, and so on) and I founded ClojureBridge as a effort to improve diversity in the Clojure community — following the lead of a former Macromedia colleague, Sarah Allen, who founded RailsBridge. It’s all a big learning curve and most white cishet men don’t even know what they don’t know about the subject — being inclusive is hard, but it’s important.

Most conference CoCs are based in some form on this one:

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Conference_anti-harassment/Policy

Note that whilst nearly all CoCs address “sexual language” (in addition to a long list of specific forms of harassment), they do not typically include swearing or profanity because that, in and of itself, is not harassment.

It was the inclusion of “No profanity or cuss/curse/swear words” as a discussion point that made me want to raise this, especially since several non-US members objected to that inclusion. As an ex-pat Brit, now an American citizen, I’m with Adam, Kai, Mark — profanity in and of itself should not be considered unacceptable behavior, as long as the tone and intent is not exclusionary.

SeanOn Feb 22, 2015, at 11:30 AM, Julian Halliwell <@Julian_Halliwell> wrote:

Apparently that wouldn’t happen because of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINASWAN

“Micha is nice and so we are nice”?

Alex,

A few comments and questions, offered constructively:

a. If there are to be guidelines, they will need to be captured and
presented somewhere in order for community members or potential community
members to know that such guidelines exist. I don’t think it is safe to
assume that everyone will simply “know how to behave”. Summarizing them at
the top of the welcome page for the group, for instance, would seem to me
to be one logical place for that.

Agreed.

e. RE your comment about the effort of developing a code of conduct:
that’s effectively what you are proposing here, at some level.

Well: quite.

I reckon the wording - which needs a proof read & some spit and shine as
you allude to, Ron - should be posted as a “sticky” at the top of the topic
list. The intent and the general gist of it is good.

We could perhaps also benefit from having another one with a technical
angle: how to ask questions sensibly, etc (eg:
http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html).On Sunday, 22 February 2015 03:47:02 UTC+13, Ron Stewart wrote:


Adam