Tone and community guidelines

dev google-group-archive
21

In some places it is actually illegal to speak profanities in front of
children.

Interesting! I would love to see some reference to that to see how it
possibly came about. Nothing surprises me about what they’ll legislate
about in the States though.

One last thought that my great grandmother taught me was that profanity is
only used by a mind too weak to logically defend a position.

Oh yeah. A lot of ppl trot-out that nonsense. Generally ppl who can’t make
a case with logic and facts, ironically. And is itself - obviously - an ad
hominem attack (although such a limp one, I don’t think it really matters.
The only real risk is spraining one’s eyeballs from rolling them too much
;-).

I suspect the “off topic” klaxon is warming up though, so perhaps we’d
better move on from this. Serious - on topic! - question… is it OK to
have off topic conversations (because I think this is interesting) with
other community members here if they’re marked as off-topic?On Sunday, 22 February 2015 18:13:11 UTC+13, Steven Durette wrote:

–
Adam

22

OT but because you asked:

Some anti-profanity laws were passed to shield women and children from foul-mouthed men. Consider this Michigan law: “Any person who shall use any indecent, immoral, obscene, vulgar or insulting language in the presence or hearing of any woman or child shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.”

Another Oklahoma law warns, “If any person shall utter or speak any obscene or lascivious language or word in any public place, or in the presence of females, or in the presence of children under ten (10) years of age, he shall be liable to a fine of not more than One Hundred Dollars ($100.00), or imprisonment for not more than thirty (30) days, or both.”
Taken from http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/curses-blasphemy-profanity-laws-still-on-the-booksSent from my iPhone

On Feb 22, 2015, at 12:28 AM, Adam Cameron <@Adam_Cameron1> wrote:

On Sunday, 22 February 2015 18:13:11 UTC+13, Steven Durette wrote:
In some places it is actually illegal to speak profanities in front of children.

Interesting! I would love to see some reference to that to see how it possibly came about. Nothing surprises me about what they’ll legislate about in the States though.

One last thought that my great grandmother taught me was that profanity is only used by a mind too weak to logically defend a position.

Oh yeah. A lot of ppl trot-out that nonsense. Generally ppl who can’t make a case with logic and facts, ironically. And is itself - obviously - an ad hominem attack (although such a limp one, I don’t think it really matters. The only real risk is spraining one’s eyeballs from rolling them too much ;-).

I suspect the “off topic” klaxon is warming up though, so perhaps we’d better move on from this. Serious - on topic! - question… is it OK to have off topic conversations (because I think this is interesting) with other community members here if they’re marked as off-topic?

–
Adam

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23

I will not address all of the points that were made in this thread, but
here are a few based on bits and pieces from the different messages:

  1. of course that swearing is unprofessional. do you greet a new client
    that comes into your office that way? do you talk like that to your
    boss? at a job interview?

if someone came to me for an interview and started spewing profanity, I
would not hire him/her, because at the very least I know that they lack
self control. see also

  1. every community (group, club, organization) has “code of conduct” or
    “rules of what’s acceptable”, even if unwritten. that has nothing to do
    with a “nanny state”. for example, if you’d unzip your pants in the
    middle of the office and start “watering” the plants – you would be
    thrown out immediately – possibly get arrested.

  2. most of us come to this forum for professional reasons – to learn,
    improve, share ideas, ask, answer, etc. – when someone posts profanity
    or other offensive thoughts then we have to read them if we want to stay
    in the forum for professional reasons, and the person who posts that
    forces it on us.

share it with your friends by email. tweet it where one can simply not
follow your posts. post it on your blog – people who wants to read it
will, and people who do not, won’t. but when you post it to the mailing
list here the only way for me to avoid it is to leave the mailing list,
which I really don’t think that I should.

here’s an idea – open your own mailing list, invite your friends, and
post it there – the people who want to communicate with you there will
opt in.

  1. I’m no stranger to profanity. I probably know at least as many bad
    words as the rest of you (possibly more, because I know bad words in
    several languages). that doesn’t mean that this public forum is the
    place for them.

I’m a member of several mailing lists of major projects – and I’ve
never seen the language there that I’ve seen here. most likely because
the first time you spew profanity on one of those lists your message
will be erased and you’ll be kicked out.

  1. last but not least (this is probably the most important one), this
    forum is the “face of Lucee”. if I were a new user who decided to check
    out Lucee – and I read some of the comments here – I would not waste
    another minute of my time on this mailing list, and possibly not on this
    project.

this is something that the Lucee Association should think about very
carefully, as it can have serious implications on the future of the
project.

I think that Nando said it best when he wrote: “Do we want to create an
inclusive international community around Lucee, or an exclusive clique.
To me, I don’t think we can afford to be an exclusive clique. We’ll go
extinct that way.”

Igal

p.s. you can disagree with what I wrote, but seriously, try to be mature
about it. I’m sure that you can do so without resorting to foul language.

24

+infinityOn Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Kai Koenig <@Kai_Koenig> wrote:

My opinion:

It’s not unacceptable at all for people to use what some folks here call
“profanities” in a generic manner, e.g. “for fucks sake, can we please all
get back on topic” or “I think this concept is total bollocks” etc.

It becomes unacceptable if used in ways such as: “Igal, fuck off” or
“Adam, fuck off yourself”.

When it comes to items 4 and 5 on Alex list, I’m fine with them as they
clearly give suggestions (“try…”). I might or might not try but I might not
succeed, that’s life for everyone.

I will clearly not participate in an email list with a general
profanity/swear word list that gets policed by someone and where we talk
about violations and offences. That sounds frankly kind of ridiculous and
nanny-/police-state to me.

And that’s about all I have to say on the topic.

Cheers
Kai

so you still won’t say that it’s unacceptable for users to talk to each
other like this on the list? this was not an offline conversation – this
was on the public list.

I just showed you that 4 out of the 5 items on your list were … broken
(call it whatever you want), but you still won’t say that it’s
unacceptable? really??

this is not a theoretical question. it’s a very specific one. I realize
that Adam works with you and that he is your friend, but try to be
objective and take the names out of the discussion. today it’s Adam and
me, tomorrow it’s someone else, possibly you.

I would also like to hear what Matt and Kai have to say about this,
especially since Kai came up with the basis of this new list.

Igal

On 2/23/2015 11:27 AM, Alex Skinner wrote:

Answers inline
On 23 February 2015 at 19:06, Igal @ Lucee.org <@Igal> wrote:

I’m actually not disagreeing either.

yes, I still think it’s unprofessional to use bad language in the

public forum, and I still agree with Nando, Steven, and others that it can
hurt the project (and the developers whose careers’ revolve around it), but
that’s something that the Lucee Association should decide on because it
reflects directly on the project.

I think having broad guidelines is as far as it should go the Lucee
association has more pressing issues to expend its limited resource on.

my main beef here was when Adam told me to “fuck off” (on Feb 13th),
which violates items 1, 3, 4, and 5 on your new list. Adam and I rarely
agree on things, and that is fine, but he had absolutely no reason (nor
right) to talk to me like that, nor for me to “accept it”.

my response to Adam was also very unprofessional, of course, but I only
responded that way because there is no other way of addressing this issue.

Well I think the term violation and offenses is wrong these aren’t
laws and we’re not in a position to play inforcers, we’re talking about a
set of guidelines to try and subtly jolt people into not writing things
that are going to get under each others skin or otherwise cause offense,
and in the case where it clearly has then it sounds like an offline chat
between you in this case might be the way forward ?

now, if we all agree that Adam’s comment (as well as my reply to it, of
course) is unacceptable – then let’s move forward – we should post this
list somewhere and point to it with a warning when someone violates it.
multiple offenses would be dealt with differently.

but if anyone thinks that it’s ok to talk to other members this way (or
maybe it’s only ok because it wasn’t said to you) then we still have a
problem here.

I think 1-5 covers it nicely and tbh there is nothing stopping
individuals taking their conversations offline if the content ceases to be
off general benefit to the wider audience.

Back to whoever came up the with the analogy that If we were all sitting
in a pub, office or any other environment and a contingent of those in the
room were bickering they’d most likely be quite directly told to go outside
and sort it out between them I see this as no different.

Cheers

Alex

Igal

On 2/23/2015 10:17 AM, Alex Skinner wrote:

@Matt and Andrew

I think you should both reread my original posting, I’m not sure, in
this case that my views are that aligned with Igals per say, I didn’t for a
second suggest that profanity was relevant and I would be in favour of a
light touch low bureaucracy approach to this. I actually said…

“I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code
of conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know
how to behave.”

I think Kai’s posting summed it up very well and I think Micha adding
the respect element is important.

My original posting was not to suggest that we need guidelines but more
to say I could see something brewing and wanted to nip it in the bud before
we got overly restrictive over the top guidelines as a knee-jerk reaction
in response or some level of moderation.

The list is an environment that just reflects real life, people swear,
I don’t personally think it’s unprofessional I think it’s when it gets
aimed at individuals or there is a lack of respect that its an issue.

I’m sure communities exist in their relative bubbles where the world is
free from expletives but this is a global list and Adam and Kai have
already said certain cultures use certain words like punctuation so I’m not
looking to add censorship to the list.

Let’s be honest we all know when a comment is barbed or aimed at
someone, there is the risk that the recipient who doesn’t have English as a
first language may misunderstand or take offence as they don’t get the
subtly of what is being said.

So as I started this can I list the following 5 elements which i’ve
picked from the responses as guidelines, and see if we can actually put
them in the signature of posts.

  1. Don’t insult any person directly
  2. Don’t insult anyone’s religion, gender or sexual orientation.
  3. Be respectful and more specifically don’t be a total idiot
  4. Try to be nurturing in your responses
  5. Try to be mindful of not using colourful language as some may take
    offence

Anyway Lucee 5 who is excited about that, what’s the feature you’re
most looking forward to?

Cheers

Alex

On 23 February 2015 at 14:03, Matt Quackenbush <@Matt_Quackenbush> wrote:

On Feb 23, 2015 2:36 AM, “Michael Offner” <@Michael_Offner> wrote:

The problems are not the words itself, to problem is what you are
doing with this words.

Precisely what Kai, Adam, Sean, myself and others have said.

For me this discussion is only about one thing “Respect”!

Only because someone does not share your opinion does not mean he is a
fool, fight as hard as you can for your opinion, but don’t get personal to
your opponent, show a little bit of respect!

Again, this is exactly what we’ve been saying. It seems that the only
ones who disagree are Alex and Igal. They seem to believe that respect
includes a specific list of taboo words, and that those words and
professionalism/respect are mutually exclusive, which, of course, they are
not.

Be nice
Micha

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 8:32 AM, ADK <@ADK> wrote:

the drama-to-substance ratio on this list is getting out of hand. So
far since launch the hottest topics of discussion have been Google v.
Discourse, FUD around CFML’s future with Lucee, and international societal
norms regarding profanity. How about we get back to the business at hand of
creating software, eh?

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 9:30:06 AM UTC-8, Alex Skinner wrote:

Hi,

I want to support a vibrant community for the Lucee list but at
times the tone and interactions on here are really not acceptable. Usually,
this is a handful of people being louder than most.

The Association and its members should not be fielding complaints
regarding this list or spending effort in that regard.

I want this list to be approachable to all contributors, new and
old, and that people of all levels be that:

  1. English as a first language
  2. Experience of CFML and programming in general
  3. Confidence in writing or self-confidence possibly.

That everyone is comfortable contributing and are not going to get
shot down.

Like all communities we decide the environment we create.

I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code
of conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know
how to behave.

I also don’t think this should be a moderated list but can I ask
that if threads turn into an off topic discussion involving just a few
individuals that you take the discussion elsewhere.

If people leave the list or put the list on digest because they want
to filter some of this stuff then to me it’s not just them that loses out.

In general terms, I feel really positive about Lucee, the progress
and how the community has rallied around it.

Cheers

Alex

–
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25

My opinion:

It’s not unacceptable at all for people to use what some folks here call “profanities” in a generic manner, e.g. “for fucks sake, can we please all get back on topic” or “I think this concept is total bollocks” etc.

It becomes unacceptable if used in ways such as: “Igal, fuck off” or “Adam, fuck off yourself”.

When it comes to items 4 and 5 on Alex list, I’m fine with them as they clearly give suggestions (“try…”). I might or might not try but I might not succeed, that’s life for everyone.

I will clearly not participate in an email list with a general profanity/swear word list that gets policed by someone and where we talk about violations and offences. That sounds frankly kind of ridiculous and nanny-/police-state to me.

And that’s about all I have to say on the topic.

Cheers
Kai> so you still won’t say that it’s unacceptable for users to talk to each other like this on the list? this was not an offline conversation – this was on the public list.

I just showed you that 4 out of the 5 items on your list were … broken (call it whatever you want), but you still won’t say that it’s unacceptable? really??

this is not a theoretical question. it’s a very specific one. I realize that Adam works with you and that he is your friend, but try to be objective and take the names out of the discussion. today it’s Adam and me, tomorrow it’s someone else, possibly you.

I would also like to hear what Matt and Kai have to say about this, especially since Kai came up with the basis of this new list.

Igal

On 2/23/2015 11:27 AM, Alex Skinner wrote:

Answers inline
On 23 February 2015 at 19:06, Igal @ Lucee.org <@Igal> wrote:
I’m actually not disagreeing either.
yes, I still think it’s unprofessional to use bad language in the public forum, and I still agree with Nando, Steven, and others that it can hurt the project (and the developers whose careers’ revolve around it), but that’s something that the Lucee Association should decide on because it reflects directly on the project.

I think having broad guidelines is as far as it should go the Lucee association has more pressing issues to expend its limited resource on.

my main beef here was when Adam told me to “fuck off” (on Feb 13th), which violates items 1, 3, 4, and 5 on your new list. Adam and I rarely agree on things, and that is fine, but he had absolutely no reason (nor right) to talk to me like that, nor for me to “accept it”.

my response to Adam was also very unprofessional, of course, but I only responded that way because there is no other way of addressing this issue.

Well I think the term violation and offenses is wrong these aren’t laws and we’re not in a position to play inforcers, we’re talking about a set of guidelines to try and subtly jolt people into not writing things that are going to get under each others skin or otherwise cause offense, and in the case where it clearly has then it sounds like an offline chat between you in this case might be the way forward ?

now, if we all agree that Adam’s comment (as well as my reply to it, of course) is unacceptable – then let’s move forward – we should post this list somewhere and point to it with a warning when someone violates it. multiple offenses would be dealt with differently.

but if anyone thinks that it’s ok to talk to other members this way (or maybe it’s only ok because it wasn’t said to you) then we still have a problem here.

I think 1-5 covers it nicely and tbh there is nothing stopping individuals taking their conversations offline if the content ceases to be off general benefit to the wider audience.

Back to whoever came up the with the analogy that If we were all sitting in a pub, office or any other environment and a contingent of those in the room were bickering they’d most likely be quite directly told to go outside and sort it out between them I see this as no different.

Cheers

Alex

Igal

On 2/23/2015 10:17 AM, Alex Skinner wrote:

@Matt and Andrew

I think you should both reread my original posting, I’m not sure, in this case that my views are that aligned with Igals per say, I didn’t for a second suggest that profanity was relevant and I would be in favour of a light touch low bureaucracy approach to this. I actually said…

“I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code of conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know how to behave.”

I think Kai’s posting summed it up very well and I think Micha adding the respect element is important.

My original posting was not to suggest that we need guidelines but more to say I could see something brewing and wanted to nip it in the bud before we got overly restrictive over the top guidelines as a knee-jerk reaction in response or some level of moderation.

The list is an environment that just reflects real life, people swear, I don’t personally think it’s unprofessional I think it’s when it gets aimed at individuals or there is a lack of respect that its an issue.

I’m sure communities exist in their relative bubbles where the world is free from expletives but this is a global list and Adam and Kai have already said certain cultures use certain words like punctuation so I’m not looking to add censorship to the list.

Let’s be honest we all know when a comment is barbed or aimed at someone, there is the risk that the recipient who doesn’t have English as a first language may misunderstand or take offence as they don’t get the subtly of what is being said.

So as I started this can I list the following 5 elements which i’ve picked from the responses as guidelines, and see if we can actually put them in the signature of posts.

  1. Don’t insult any person directly
  2. Don’t insult anyone’s religion, gender or sexual orientation.
  3. Be respectful and more specifically don’t be a total idiot
  4. Try to be nurturing in your responses
  5. Try to be mindful of not using colourful language as some may take offence

Anyway Lucee 5 who is excited about that, what’s the feature you’re most looking forward to?

Cheers

Alex

On 23 February 2015 at 14:03, Matt Quackenbush <@Matt_Quackenbush> wrote:

On Feb 23, 2015 2:36 AM, “Michael Offner” <@Michael_Offner> wrote:

The problems are not the words itself, to problem is what you are doing with this words.

Precisely what Kai, Adam, Sean, myself and others have said.

For me this discussion is only about one thing “Respect”!

Only because someone does not share your opinion does not mean he is a fool, fight as hard as you can for your opinion, but don’t get personal to your opponent, show a little bit of respect!

Again, this is exactly what we’ve been saying. It seems that the only ones who disagree are Alex and Igal. They seem to believe that respect includes a specific list of taboo words, and that those words and professionalism/respect are mutually exclusive, which, of course, they are not.

Be nice
Micha

On Mon, Feb 23, 2015 at 8:32 AM, ADK <@ADK> wrote:

the drama-to-substance ratio on this list is getting out of hand. So far since launch the hottest topics of discussion have been Google v. Discourse, FUD around CFML’s future with Lucee, and international societal norms regarding profanity. How about we get back to the business at hand of creating software, eh?

On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 9:30:06 AM UTC-8, Alex Skinner wrote:

Hi,

I want to support a vibrant community for the Lucee list but at times the tone and interactions on here are really not acceptable. Usually, this is a handful of people being louder than most.

The Association and its members should not be fielding complaints regarding this list or spending effort in that regard.

I want this list to be approachable to all contributors, new and old, and that people of all levels be that:

  1. English as a first language
  2. Experience of CFML and programming in general
  3. Confidence in writing or self-confidence possibly.

That everyone is comfortable contributing and are not going to get shot down.

Like all communities we decide the environment we create.

I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code of conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know how to behave.

I also don’t think this should be a moderated list but can I ask that if threads turn into an off topic discussion involving just a few individuals that you take the discussion elsewhere.

If people leave the list or put the list on digest because they want to filter some of this stuff then to me it’s not just them that loses out.

In general terms, I feel really positive about Lucee, the progress and how the community has rallied around it.

Cheers

Alex

–
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Managing Director

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26

I’m with Kai on this. And as I noted earlier, even Codes of Conduct
specifically intended to create inclusive, welcoming spaces don’t exclude
“bad language” per se.

SeanOn Sun, Feb 22, 2015 at 10:50 PM, Igal <@Igal> wrote:

it’s very relevant – it addresses Adam’s statement: “It also
presupposes there’s some sort of inverse correlation between profanity and
professionalism”.

On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 10:18:57 PM UTC-8, Kai Koenig wrote:

Responses inline:

I will not address all of the points that were made in this thread, but
here are a few based on bits and pieces from the different messages:

  1. of course that swearing is unprofessional. do you greet a new
    client
    that comes into your office that way? do you talk like that to your
    boss? at a job interview?

if someone came to me for an interview and started spewing profanity, I
would not hire him/her, because at the very least I know that they lack
self control. see also
Cursing at Work: Replacing Profanity with Professionalism
profanity-with-professionalism/

I don’t agree with Mrs Gottsman, but that’s fair enough.

Your first examples (client/boss/job interview) are absolutely irrelevant
for what’s being discussed here.

That is for various reasons, among them is:

  • those people pay you money for playing by mostly their rules —> On this
    mailing list, most people contribute because they volunteer their time.

There are tons of other reasons why I think your comparisons have no
relevance in this discussion, but I don’t want to spend my time writing
them all up as I know we will disagree anyway.

  1. every community (group, club, organization) has “code of conduct” or
    “rules of what’s acceptable”, even if unwritten. that has nothing to
    do
    with a “nanny state”. for example, if you’d unzip your pants in the
    middle of the office and start “watering” the plants – you would be
    thrown out immediately – possibly get arrested.

If you were to read the emails in this thread again you’ll find that most
people have no issue with an explicit or unwritten code of conduct.

What people have an issue with are in fact “nanny state” rules of which
words are allowed and which not. Who’s gonna define the word list in your
model btw? Just wondering …

I’m a member of several mailing lists of major projects – and I’ve
never seen the language there that I’ve seen here. most likely because
the first time you spew profanity on one of those lists your message
will be erased and you’ll be kicked out.

So, those mailing lists do have a word list? Are those rules documented
somewhere.

  1. last but not least (this is probably the most important one), this
    forum is the “face of Lucee”. if I were a new user who decided to
    check
    out Lucee – and I read some of the comments here – I would not waste
    another minute of my time on this mailing list, and possibly not on
    this
    project.

this is something that the Lucee Association should think about very
carefully, as it can have serious implications on the future of the
project.

I think that Nando said it best when he wrote: "Do we want to create an
inclusive international community around Lucee, or an exclusive clique.
To me, I don’t think we can afford to be an exclusive clique. We’ll go
extinct that way.”

Building an inclusive international community has 0 to do with in my
opinion nanny-state profanity word filtering.

I’ll ask the question again: How far would you want to take adapting to
the lowest common denominator? Banning females from the list to suit
someone from a country where females are not supposed to take part in
professional life and public society?

You seriously need to accept that there are other social norms outside of
the US-level of being politically over-correct () — () (in my opinion
very often the case)

Cheers,
Kai

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27

I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code of
conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know how
to behave.

Especially since this is a Google Group and Google has already spent that
time for use:

JochemOn Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 6:30 PM, Alex Skinner wrote:

–
Jochem van Dieten
http://jochem.vandieten.net/

28

the drama-to-substance ratio on this list is getting out of hand. So far
since launch the hottest topics of discussion have been Google v.
Discourse, FUD around CFML’s future with Lucee, and international societal
norms regarding profanity. How about we get back to the business at hand of
creating software, eh?On Friday, February 20, 2015 at 9:30:06 AM UTC-8, Alex Skinner wrote:

Hi,

I want to support a vibrant community for the Lucee list but at times the
tone and interactions on here are really not acceptable. Usually, this is a
handful of people being louder than most.

The Association and its members should not be fielding complaints
regarding this list or spending effort in that regard.

I want this list to be approachable to all contributors, new and old, and
that people of all levels be that:

  1. English as a first language
  2. Experience of CFML and programming in general
  3. Confidence in writing or self-confidence possibly.

That everyone is comfortable contributing and are not going to get shot
down.

Like all communities we decide the environment we create.

I for one see no benefit in the time associated with creating a code of
conduct like we see at certain conferences, we are all adults and know how
to behave.

I also don’t think this should be a moderated list but can I ask that if
threads turn into an off topic discussion involving just a few individuals
that you take the discussion elsewhere.

If people leave the list or put the list on digest because they want to
filter some of this stuff then to me it’s not just them that loses out.

In general terms, I feel really positive about Lucee, the progress and how
the community has rallied around it.

Cheers

Alex

–
Alex Skinner
Managing Director

Pixl8 Interactive, 3 Tun Yard, Peardon Street, London
SW8 3HT, United Kingdom

T: +44 [0] 845 260 0726• W: www.pixl8.co.uk• E: in...@pixl8.co.uk
<javascript:>

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to legal, professional or other privilege or may be protected by work
product immunity or other legal rules. If you are not the addressee please
do not read, print, re-transmit, store or act in reliance on it or any
attachments. Instead, please email it back to the sender and then
immediately permanently delete it. Pixl8 Interactive Ltd Registered in
England. Registered number: 04336501. Registered office: 8 Spur Road,
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29

***** snip
There are tons of other reasons why I think your comparisons have no relevance in this discussion, but I don’t want to spend my time writing them all up as I know we will disagree anyway.
**** end snip

Kai, how about this one, you try to talk a client into Lucee as the app server and they do some research and find that the official list is unprofessional and therefore decide not to adopt it.>

30

I would say, enthusiastic, passionate and colorful debate would win em over!On Monday, February 23, 2015 at 8:07:38 AM UTC-6, Steven Durette wrote:

***** snip
There are tons of other reasons why I think your comparisons have no
relevance in this discussion, but I don’t want to spend my time writing
them all up as I know we will disagree anyway.
**** end snip

Kai, how about this one, you try to talk a client into Lucee as the app
server and they do some research and find that the official list is
unprofessional and therefore decide not to adopt it.

31

Responses inline:

I will not address all of the points that were made in this thread, but
here are a few based on bits and pieces from the different messages:

  1. of course that swearing is unprofessional. do you greet a new client
    that comes into your office that way? do you talk like that to your
    boss? at a job interview?

if someone came to me for an interview and started spewing profanity, I
would not hire him/her, because at the very least I know that they lack
self control. see also
http://dianegottsman.com/2013/02/cursing-at-work-replacing-profanity-with-professionalism/

I don’t agree with Mrs Gottsman, but that’s fair enough.

Your first examples (client/boss/job interview) are absolutely irrelevant for what’s being discussed here.

That is for various reasons, among them is:

  • those people pay you money for playing by mostly their rules —> On this mailing list, most people contribute because they volunteer their time.

There are tons of other reasons why I think your comparisons have no relevance in this discussion, but I don’t want to spend my time writing them all up as I know we will disagree anyway.

  1. every community (group, club, organization) has “code of conduct” or
    “rules of what’s acceptable”, even if unwritten. that has nothing to do
    with a “nanny state”. for example, if you’d unzip your pants in the
    middle of the office and start “watering” the plants – you would be
    thrown out immediately – possibly get arrested.

If you were to read the emails in this thread again you’ll find that most people have no issue with an explicit or unwritten code of conduct.

What people have an issue with are in fact “nanny state” rules of which words are allowed and which not. Who’s gonna define the word list in your model btw? Just wondering …

I’m a member of several mailing lists of major projects – and I’ve
never seen the language there that I’ve seen here. most likely because
the first time you spew profanity on one of those lists your message
will be erased and you’ll be kicked out.

So, those mailing lists do have a word list? Are those rules documented somewhere.

  1. last but not least (this is probably the most important one), this
    forum is the “face of Lucee”. if I were a new user who decided to check
    out Lucee – and I read some of the comments here – I would not waste
    another minute of my time on this mailing list, and possibly not on this
    project.

this is something that the Lucee Association should think about very
carefully, as it can have serious implications on the future of the
project.

I think that Nando said it best when he wrote: "Do we want to create an
inclusive international community around Lucee, or an exclusive clique.
To me, I don’t think we can afford to be an exclusive clique. We’ll go
extinct that way.”

Building an inclusive international community has 0 to do with in my opinion nanny-state profanity word filtering.

I’ll ask the question again: How far would you want to take adapting to the lowest common denominator? Banning females from the list to suit someone from a country where females are not supposed to take part in professional life and public society?

You seriously need to accept that there are other social norms outside of the US-level of being politically over-correct () — () (in my opinion very often the case)

Cheers,
Kai

32

it’s very relevant – it addresses Adam’s statement: “It also presupposes
there’s some sort of inverse correlation between profanity and
professionalism”.On Sunday, February 22, 2015 at 10:18:57 PM UTC-8, Kai Koenig wrote:

Responses inline:

I will not address all of the points that were made in this thread, but
here are a few based on bits and pieces from the different messages:

  1. of course that swearing is unprofessional. do you greet a new client
    that comes into your office that way? do you talk like that to your
    boss? at a job interview?

if someone came to me for an interview and started spewing profanity, I
would not hire him/her, because at the very least I know that they lack
self control. see also

http://dianegottsman.com/2013/02/cursing-at-work-replacing-profanity-with-professionalism/

I don’t agree with Mrs Gottsman, but that’s fair enough.

Your first examples (client/boss/job interview) are absolutely irrelevant
for what’s being discussed here.

That is for various reasons, among them is:

  • those people pay you money for playing by mostly their rules —> On this
    mailing list, most people contribute because they volunteer their time.

There are tons of other reasons why I think your comparisons have no
relevance in this discussion, but I don’t want to spend my time writing
them all up as I know we will disagree anyway.

  1. every community (group, club, organization) has “code of conduct” or
    “rules of what’s acceptable”, even if unwritten. that has nothing to do
    with a “nanny state”. for example, if you’d unzip your pants in the
    middle of the office and start “watering” the plants – you would be
    thrown out immediately – possibly get arrested.

If you were to read the emails in this thread again you’ll find that most
people have no issue with an explicit or unwritten code of conduct.

What people have an issue with are in fact “nanny state” rules of which
words are allowed and which not. Who’s gonna define the word list in your
model btw? Just wondering …

I’m a member of several mailing lists of major projects – and I’ve
never seen the language there that I’ve seen here. most likely because
the first time you spew profanity on one of those lists your message
will be erased and you’ll be kicked out.

So, those mailing lists do have a word list? Are those rules documented
somewhere.

  1. last but not least (this is probably the most important one), this
    forum is the “face of Lucee”. if I were a new user who decided to check
    out Lucee – and I read some of the comments here – I would not waste
    another minute of my time on this mailing list, and possibly not on this
    project.

this is something that the Lucee Association should think about very
carefully, as it can have serious implications on the future of the
project.

I think that Nando said it best when he wrote: "Do we want to create an
inclusive international community around Lucee, or an exclusive clique.
To me, I don’t think we can afford to be an exclusive clique. We’ll go
extinct that way.”

Building an inclusive international community has 0 to do with in my
opinion nanny-state profanity word filtering.

I’ll ask the question again: How far would you want to take adapting to
the lowest common denominator? Banning females from the list to suit
someone from a country where females are not supposed to take part in
professional life and public society?

You seriously need to accept that there are other social norms outside of
the US-level of being politically over-correct () — () (in my opinion
very often the case)

Cheers,
Kai