Respectful conduct on the mailing list

Firstly, Lucee / LAS wants everyone to feel comfortable, the line has been crossed this week several times and we’d like to remind everyone about our core principles

So as a general rule, no religion, politics, racism or sexism.

@AdamCameron wrote a long blog post about all this back in 2015

It’s ok to say, I’d rather not see all the bible references on any products, that’s fine, but please drop all the additional commentary, it’s not respectful.

In 2020, we made the following change, in accordance with the LAS philosophy.

the word blacklist is offensive and should not be used

Some people complained about it being woke, pc, etc. That’s all fine but we made that change to fit with the LAS and the wider development community standards.

So on behalf of LAS and the other moderators on this forum, I am asking everyone to keep it nice, or risk action being taken

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And let’s keep posted content focused on code, cfml and configuration issues and not on believes or political views.

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@Zackster, this is obviously directed at me, and it’s ironic that you quoted @AdamCameron, because he’s the only one besides @LionelHolt who’s had the courage to agree with me. Adam liked my posts (I mean literally he clicked the :heart: button on them) and even added his own comment. The notification says his “last post was 1 year ago”, so hey, I accomplished at least that. Haha.

Now let’s take a closer look at his blog post:

“… religion is conceptually different from a person’s physiological characteristics, and I don’t believe should ever be included in the rest of that list Kai cited.”

Seems like that at least opens the door for meta discussions being allowed when it’s pertinent to a 3rd party vendor violating the "wider development community standards". That is precisely what Ortus does.

Perhaps that is easy for you to ignore for at least two reasons:

  1. As Kai advised, “Don’t be a total dick”. Well, take a look around. It’s quite the sausage fest in here. Even the Lucee logo resembles a penis. Don’t get me wrong, I love the logo! :rofl::eggplant: But it also perfectly symbolizes how the vast majority of Lucee forum members, and 100% of recent participants other than me, are MEN. And I love men, too, but it’s so much easier for you to ignore the perspectives of women (e.g. the Pew report re: majority of Christians oppose a woman’s most fundamental human right) and disguise that as “being nice”. Before you criticize me again of being “not respectful”, take a look in the mirror.

  2. Ortus is a SPONSOR, which makes it more difficult for LAS to tolerate any constructive criticism of how they violate, again, “the wider development community standards”.

You want everyone to feel comfortable? Well, I no longer feel comfortable with the censorship and hypocrisy here. You don’t need to take action against me because I’m moving on to the far more professional Node.js community that enjoys full independence from evangelical ecosystems. Though Lucee isn’t dead, it certainly is on life support, and this official policy of a double standard is the final nail in the coffin for me.

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It’s fun that you cite my blog article there, but also then draw your attn to the “blacklist” conversation, where you provide a shining example of ad hominem in your response to Andrew. No-one says “fuck off” (ref back the conversation that started the original CoC discussion that lead to my blog article) so apparently it’s OK, but you’re demonstrating the very toxicity that you are railing against!

Then again the whole raison d’etre of this thread - as @JenniferHerrera points out - is kind of a “cancelling” of her observations that maybe biblical(*) evangelism is poss misplaced in a community like this, and is definitely a challenge for some people.

This is the cargo cult version of “being inclusive”.

Ugh.

(*) before anyone starts, my position would be the same if it was quranic evangelism, or any other sort of overt superstition being promoted.

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I would think that from a purely marketing department perspective, Ortus benefits from being made aware that they have a public perception problem. It’s probably impossible to know how many people have ignored their excellent products, because most people aren’t vocal about it. Censoring communication about it only makes that worse.

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@andreas I appreciate the tip re: yet more alternatives to ColdBox (though that is leading me astray from Lucee as well towards Node), but you cherry-picked only two points out of her overall excellent analysis. What about the rest of it? I agree it would be great value for this forum hearing from the female Ortus employees … what they think about womens’ rights. Too bad they’re not allowed to discuss that here. As for the logo, didn’t sound like she was criticizing the resemblance. Also, take another look, but this time focus on the bottom part of the L – the part that’s just … hanging there … haha – and instead of the intended wraparoud 3-D effect, think of it as a flat 2-dimensional profile with the “penis” protruding from the “body”. I think you’ll laugh when you see it. I sure did! :rofl:

Ortus aren’t a direct LAS sponsor since a while, they volunteer (a lot of) time and from time to time engage Rasia (not LAS) to do development, like they did recently with the Hibernate / ORM upgrades which benefits the whole Lucee community.

Each project / company / person has their own standards and can do what they like, however, this is Lucee and our own standards apply here.

Yesp now that you mention it, I see what you mean about the logo, anyway, I’ve wanted to see a better logo for a while, as I’d like to make some Lucee merch

If you posted this kind of vailed attack on co-workers in a work slack or something you’d probably be dragged off to HR and given a strong warning, regardless of your gender.

Such conduct would also appear to be considered unacceptable in the node.js community

As i wrote

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image

OMFG

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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New strap line:
“Lucee: the cock of the roost in the CFML world”

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Yep, that’s the t-shirt I want!

Well this was quite the read. The Lucee logo is meant to be a piece of ribbon in 3D, like a lot of things I now can’t unsee whats been pointed out. Logo was designed by a lady, i’ll point her to the post i’m not asking her.

The Lucee list, like the community is very male dominated, please don’t let this discourse be a reason not to continue to participate. I’d hope the aim with community guidance is to guide not to censor, in my experience such guides usually cause more problems than they solve though or indeed become the topic of conversation.

From my perspective i do think there is a difference between community members signing off in a signature with biblical references or continually making evangelical posts, moving the topic of conversation perpetually to religion and what Ortus highlight with their references on their products and marketing. This is fundamentally their choice and right, as it is for people to choose not to use them. I mean personally I think its a shame because their products are by a country mile the best.

I have to say i would love to be religious, I’d love to have the comfort that many take from their beliefs and the sense of community and belonging. I’m not and when I see the Ortus biblical naming and references it reminds me that others do, and take their faith which includes the spreading of the gospel seriously, it doesn’t trigger me in the way it does others and I understand that and have sympathy for those it does.

As we know with all faith and religion it is devicisive and there are extreme charactisations that related to Muslims and i’m sure the report cited in the thread is very troubling reading. Certainly I’m saddened/troubled/angry by the recent direction and politics in many countries

It is absolutely fine for someone to say they are triggered by reading bible references, that they personally would see that as a reason not to use the product. I also entirely understand the anger directed to groups, i’m not a women so can’t profess to know how that feels but having rights taken away and having a small section of society control the rights of others I feel is wrong.

Back to the point though. I had absolutely no issue with people raising the point for discussion (it was off topic a new thread would have been cleaner). But for me when we start mentioning people by name and extended things beyond facts e.g. “but I’m leery of that being an “evangelical mission” aka brainwashing children,” we move from a discussion of how the facts make us feel to charactisations and potential libel.

I think its reasonable as a community to say we strive to avoid discussions of Religion, politics, race and sex/gender, not to censor but because they can so quickly become inflamed, it isn’t for Lucee to set what the line is, remember there is no entity.

We could of say that in troubling times we do need to discuss these issues that make us uncomfortable, confront the injustices etc. I think @JenniferHerrera observations that biblical evangelism is poss misplaced, is an important topic for discussion but the references to “religious cult” and brainwashing are unnecessarily insulting to other community members who are of the christian faith. It isn’t about who it is, their gender or closing down or censoring, its about pointing out that either you have the discussion about the issue at hand without making charactisations of all Christians are X and Y and certainly not calling out individuals by name or as a community maybe you’re best avoiding the topic.

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I believe (although nobody asked me) that the some discomfort (discord/conflict/debate) is generally healthy as it allows us to think about an alternative perspective

Every coin has two larger opposing faces to make it whole. Neither perspective would complete the coin without the edges. We’re all connected and important to the health of the coin community.

A bow / rope …
I like the Lucee Coin logo, always wondered about the origin of the double headed L-cobra, and am not opposed to a refresh.

The ability to think deeply and in novel ways is key to solving problems. My respect goes to those who have the courage to offer an opposition while also supporting the community AND each individual as a unique and valued human. I’m thankful for all who have contributed to this :thread:

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@Zackster your response is another example of cherry-picking to ignore the overall message.

And while Ortus is no longer a sponsor of LAS, the inextricable relationship between the two is undeniable. The conflict of interest is obvious.

With that one correction, can anyone honestly claim that anything Jennifer said was not factual?

I mean, I’m just wondering how facts are disrespectful.

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Lionel,

Please read my post above on the subject, I think there is a difference between facts vs characterisations . Suggesting that LAS wouldn’t call out any community member regardless of their support or financial contribution if we felt that they had moved from discourse and statement of facts to insults has no factual basis.

Read Jennifer’s statement again. She specifically used the word “Perhaps”. Conflict of interest exists because of the tight relationship which includes Ortus employees who are also members of LAS. That is a fact. Whether that actually sways LAS to officially support Ortus regardless of how unprofessionally they present themselves in the two public forums (their website and GitHub) is a different issue, and yet still it is not disrespectful merely pondering whether it is so. It is a legitimate question which doesn’t deserve to be censored in the name of “being polite”. Nothing ever changes for the better when authorities choose to bury controversy.

Yeah my read here is that there’s a misunderstanding between “maintaining a respectful communications approach”, and “completely disallowing conversations that scrutinise [something] in a way that might have an outcome that isn’t to everyone’s liking”. We ought to be able to do both of those things at the same time, and we ought to be free to do so.

I do not think nutting out the pros and cons of Jennifer’s point (or even if she has a point) is appropriate for this thread. However I am going to use it as an example of my thoughts on CoC-type regulations and how they are being misapplied/misinterpreted here.

Here goes (*).

On one hand - rightly or wrongly - it’s often concluded that discussions on religious proclivities are not welcome in an environment such as this. If only from the perspective that it’s not on-topic here, let’s stipulate there’s a valid case for this.

However. We’re not discussing whose god is best here. The point raised is the professionalism of religious proselytisation (one way or the other, and the degree to which it is being done, even), and whether it’s good for LAS’s branding to be associated with a company that engages in this activity. This is a discussion that should legitimately be allowed to be had. Irrespective how meritorious we all think it is, and whether there’s a case to answer: that’s what the discussion would be about! Provided it’s done respectfully, calmly and as objectively as possible.

A similar discussion might be had ATM regarding a software company that overtly supports the current Russian regime (or, hey, the Ukrainian one maybe!). Or one that perhaps if there was a framework call CecilRhodesAtron or something like that. Should LAS be actively associating with these? Might it be something that had not occurred to them that there’s even a discussion to be had? Does the reason for the potential discussion need to be had, because it’s not immediately obvious why there’s an issue (I bet a number of ppl here don’t immediately get my reference to Cecil Rhodes, for example).

The intended purpose of CoCs and the notion of “respectful” communication are nuanced concepts, and I think the nuancing is being missed with reactions like (my wording, but the expressed sentiment) “it’s not respectful to discuss that. End of discussion”.

That said. On this thread I think the discussion about specific vendors and whether there’s a case to answer is misplaced. This is about respectful communication, and how one might interpret the CoC with that in mind. I think the case has been made that the discussion has merit, and might perhaps warrant its own thread.


Adam

(*) I’m doing my best to sound neutral, but it’s difficult. Not least of all because I do have a position on some points in this discussion, but… look… my personal position is not relevant here, and if I seem to be falling on one side or the other in how I’ve worded things above, I don’t mean to be.

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This mythical LAS is a simply bunch of people mostly volunteering on their own time to contribute to this open source project under their real names

Let’s go back to the underlying “issue” here, Ortus choose to whack (inoffensive) bible quotes on the bottom of their repo README.md’s also, under their real names…

Nobody is forcing people to use Ortus products, LAS aren’t promoting Ortus products

Personally I’m not religious and I just choose to ignore the quotes, I think we are all adults and can do the same. The quotes are all about love and respect etc, and I’ve personally never seen anything anti-women in any of the chosen quotes, or for that matter online elsewhere from the Ortus team.

As I wrote in my reply to @JenniferHerrera (who doesn’t appear to exist outside this forum) her reply in this thread would not be acceptable in a work / professional environment, which @LionelHolt conveniently choose to ignore.

As for accusing me and the rest of LAS of a conflict of interest, OMGerd (sic) we’ve been totally busted!!! Case closed, what’s the point again?

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I was ready to drop it, but since you tagged me …

Multiple pages in the docs specifically promote Commandbox and the Lucee home page displays the Ortus logo despite, as you said earlier, not being a member. And there’s far more to the tight relationship besides promoting products, but you chose to ignore that as well.

We aren’t allowed to talk about religion, which is fine with me, but it’s not okay that an inextricably linked and most popular 3rd party vendor wears it on their sleeve, casting an unprofessional image that impacts how people perceive Lucee as well. That is the double standard. Obviously we disagree and this likely will go nowhere, because you are conveniently choosing to ignore the many valid points which have been made, @AdamCameron being the most recent, most cogent, and most respectful.

@LionelHolt Really, really… this is too much! A simple doc PRs I did!!! Just that! These are nothing more just as the other contribs about the installation videos, about Linux and Win2019 on youtube or the latest XAMPP installation. And I did it for one only reason: to help others who need help with it. I just like to help others like I did with you making your .cfcs work! There are lots of users who need help with CommandBox because they use it in the cfml and and Lucee just helps posting cfml related things! If you are seeing some type of “religious support” of Lucee in my PRs, then you are seeing things - just like you’re seeing penises in logos with an L- then that tells me a lot. So, now you made me take this very personal.

I hope others will help you out in any situation you might find yourself in the future, because I WON’T!!!

If I had the posiibilty to silently dismiss your posts, I would do it immediately. Just going to ignore you from now on.

Stackoverflow would have censored you a long time ago, and so would I!