Enable Lucee community to improve docs


#21

Adam, I wonder if it is because people don’t want to be duplicating
effort. As far as I can tell from what I have read here Mark Drew is
already working on a docs site and therefore it would seem silly to me (if
I was thinking of doing it) to do it as Mark is already (as far as I know)
doing it. If that is not the case then fine, Mark doesn’t have an
obligation to do it of course, but we still need some way of organising who
is doing it don’t we, or am I missing some sort of unwritten open source
project protocol?

My point was more that we need ppl to go “I will do this…” rather than “I
want someone else to do this…”.

In this case a person could put their hand up and say “right, best I talk
to Mark”, or simply "OK… I’m gonna get this done… where should I start?"On 18 February 2015 at 08:12, Andrew Dixon <@Andrew_Dixon> wrote:


Adam


#22

Point well made re Association steer. I’ll push to bring documentation up
in the next association meeting (which are regular). By then, the chief
concern (the website) should be well under way or in an acceptable place.

My point of bringing up Dash is that, in these early stages, I think Lucee
would do well to design a documentation system that is easily ported and
built with different distributions in mind. JSON endpoint for the reference
docs for example? Hell yeah. Let people build whatever plugins they need
for whatever tooling they are using and do it without duplication of effort
and computing power. Make editing the source of this documentation easy. If
on BitBucket, there are inline editing tools, give people sufficient
instructions on how to make a pull request. Not quite as easy as direct
inline editing of a wiki page, but far more powerful and useful.

Keep the ideas and links coming at this point I say, while influence can
still be had. Getting the docs “right” will be a huge win.

Nice one Dom.

If you’ll just let me push for human-written (as opposed to automated) docs
some more.

If “we” were to come up with a decent template for a function / tag doc
wiki page, then we can facilitate humans maintaining the content (big win)
and make it reasonably easy to then reduce that back to a JSON treatment
which is publicly exposed for other people to generate their Dash docs,
Sublime Text plug-ins, docs shipped in Lucee Admin etc.

Speaking for myself: I’ll fix docs provided I can click a button and type
the fix in and submit it. I won’t edit an XML or a JSON file. And I sure
as shit won’t fork stuff, do pull reqs etc simply to help someone with
their docs. Quite simply because this is the 21stC, and computers are
supposed to serve the humans, not the other way around. The UI for data
entry should suit the “U” in “UI”, and that is a person.On 18 February 2015 at 10:49, Dominic Watson <@Dominic_Watson> wrote:


Adam


#23

While I agree with Adam saying he is looking for someone to say “I will do
this” it’s a bit of a free-for-all right now. People have different
capabilities and time constraints, having a bit more organization may help
those willing to do “something” - but not sure what to do - grab some of
the low hanging fruit tickets and contribute. The more they do that, the
more likely they’ll get comfortable tackling more tickets or more advanced
tickets.

Very true. I was more trying to encourage a mindshift in the community
wherein as well as suggesting stuff, ppl can do stuff too.

People are clearly wanting to help with the docs, and I think there are a
bunch of volunteers waiting. What’s kinda letting us down currently is the
steering from The Association. TBH. To victimise Mark slightly (sorry mate)
to demonstrate a point, I’d prefer if he didn’t jump ahead and start his
docs project before there’s a decision that that’s the way things should
go, and I think that decision should come from the (unhelpfully quiet)
Lucee Association. They don’t leave the decisions on how the language is
implemented to just anyone, they have Micha et al to steer it. They ought
to be taking the same approach with other stuff like the solution for the
docs, the solution for the website, etc. They don’t need to do the actual
work, they just need to marshal it. Then the community can get the work
done.On 18 February 2015 at 09:02, ADK <@ADK> wrote:


Adam


#24

Stupid question of course, but Dash/Zeal already have Coldfusion docs.
Couldn’t that be duped and then remove stuff Lucee doesn’t support and add
additional stuff Lucee does support?
Seems like a quicker way to get a nice documentation set for Dash/Zeal.


#25

What might also be worth looking at is http://kapeli.com/dash. Offline
documentation browsing and searching for Mac users. Compatibility with that
system would be a bonus.On 16 February 2015 at 04:07, Dan Skaggs <@Dan_Skaggs> wrote:

I was going to suggest that someone look at the Taffy.io docs. Adam has a
separate set of docs for each version (admittedly the volume of docs for
Taffy are not what Lucee would need). If memory serves his source files are
stored in Markdown and then HTML is auto generated from those.

Dan

On Feb 15, 2015, at 5:33 PM, Tom King <@Tom_King> wrote:

cfwheels has a ‘versioned’ function reference, i.e
http://cfwheels.org/docs/1-3/function so you can see in the URL pretty
quickly which version you’re looking at, which I find useful.
The main functions are done by the core team (via jsdoc style comments in
the source), and then there’s the user guides (i.e stuff like
http://cfwheels.org/docs/1-3/chapter/conventions ) which we’re in the
process on converting to markdown which live in the main repo.

Once we’ve got all that done (not a small job!) we should be able to
autogenerate from the .md files, and anyone can contribute.

The version-ing is an issue there though - i.e, if you’re specifically
referring to a function by URL, it’s very easily to put the version number
in rather than the ‘non-versioned’ canonical link.

Generally speaking I’m all for the API functions to be versioned, and the
userguides/examples to be more flexible, as they can still be written in a
‘since version 1.2, you can do x’ way.
T

On Sunday, 15 February 2015 22:12:42 UTC, Adam Cameron wrote:

On 16 February 2015 at 10:53, Mark Drew mark...@gmail.com wrote:

Even if they edit it wrong, it would have to be submitted as a pull
request so hopefully someone would test it before it breaks a future
release of Lucee.

That’s a pain in the arse simply to tweak some docs. It’s gotta be
something like Wikimedia where someone can just edit the page.

There is the problem really. You want people’s modifications (typo
fixes, clarifications, grammar, etc) to make it into the engine as easily
as possible.

This is where we diverge. The docs don’t need to get into the engine
at all. Docs are docs. The engine is the engine. There’s no need to
conflate the two. I think this is where we’re (collectively) making a rod
for our own back here. The two things don’t need to be coupled. And,
TBH, I don’t really see much of a gain from doing so.

Everything else you say sounds bang-on.


Adam


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#26

I won’t have a chance to look at the docs site stuff till next week. I can share what I have so far with someone tomorrow ( need to add it to a repo)

Mark Drew> On 17 Feb 2015, at 18:31, @lutz wrote:

Why doesn’t someone who wants this format actually put their hand up and do something about it?
Well, partly because I would miss your rants about this… :slight_smile:
Point well taken.


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#27

I don’t work with many OS projects directly, but I do so with non-profits
and what is standard is for goals/objectives to be set (e.g. documentation,
website, marketing, etc.) and then for certain people to chair those ideas
and form committees to fulfill them.

In that way, there is an understood vision, top-down, of what the goup is
tryin gto do with “docs” and people who are interested in helping with
documentation know who to go to to help out and that chair will likely have
a punch-list of items that need doing. This also allows for curation -
which is definitely important for something like documentation in the form
of proper editing, especially with people from all over the planet
contributing.

While I agree with Adam saying he is looking for someone to say “I will do
this” it’s a bit of a free-for-all right now. People have different
capabilities and time constraints, having a bit more organization may help
those willing to do “something” - but not sure what to do - grab some of
the low hanging fruit tickets and contribute. The more they do that, the
more likely they’ll get comfortable tackling more tickets or more advanced
tickets.

There’s definitely a sense of Wild, Wild West at the moment so it’s hard to
jump in and commit without understanding scope…On Tuesday, February 17, 2015 at 11:12:49 AM UTC-8, Andrew Dixon wrote:

Adam, I wonder if it is because people don’t want to be duplicating
effort. As far as I can tell from what I have read here Mark Drew is
already working on a docs site and therefore it would seem silly to me (if
I was thinking of doing it) to do it as Mark is already (as far as I know)
doing it. If that is not the case then fine, Mark doesn’t have an
obligation to do it of course, but we still need some way of organising who
is doing it don’t we, or am I missing some sort of unwritten open source
project protocol?

Kind regards,

Andrew
http://about.me/andrew_dixon

On 17 February 2015 at 18:40, Adam Cameron <dac...@gmail.com <javascript:> wrote:

On Wednesday, 18 February 2015 07:31:35 UTC+13, lu...@lesener.de wrote:

Why doesn’t someone who wants this format actually put their hand up and *do

something about it*?

Well, partly because I would miss your rants about this… :slight_smile:
Point well taken.

You worry about the docs… I’ll worry about the rants. Deal?

:wink:


Adam


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#28

What might also be worth looking at is http://kapeli.com/dash. Offline
documentation browsing and searching for Mac users.

And Windows users: http://zealdocs.org/.

I use it, it’s pretty handy.On Tuesday, 17 February 2015 23:17:21 UTC+13, Dominic Watson wrote:


Adam


#29

And Windows users: http://zealdocs.org/
http://www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fzealdocs.org%2F&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNG98YrxVs9gOFYjmrbXI_LThyAmow
.

Didn’t know about that and Linux users too - thanks Adam!


#30

Point well made re Association steer. I’ll push to bring documentation up
in the next association meeting (which are regular). By then, the chief
concern (the website) should be well under way or in an acceptable place.

My point of bringing up Dash is that, in these early stages, I think Lucee
would do well to design a documentation system that is easily ported and
built with different distributions in mind. JSON endpoint for the reference
docs for example? Hell yeah. Let people build whatever plugins they need
for whatever tooling they are using and do it without duplication of effort
and computing power. Make editing the source of this documentation easy. If
on BitBucket, there are inline editing tools, give people sufficient
instructions on how to make a pull request. Not quite as easy as direct
inline editing of a wiki page, but far more powerful and useful.

Keep the ideas and links coming at this point I say, while influence can
still be had. Getting the docs “right” will be a huge win.On 17 February 2015 at 20:59, Adam Cameron <@Adam_Cameron1> wrote:

On 18 February 2015 at 09:34, Risto <@Risto> wrote:

Stupid question of course, but Dash/Zeal already have Coldfusion docs.
Couldn’t that be duped and then remove stuff Lucee doesn’t support and add
additional stuff Lucee does support?
Seems like a quicker way to get a nice documentation set for Dash/Zeal.

And could possibly become the basis for the content on the full docs
website too.

(although there’s push back as to whether this should be automated (to
save developer time), or done by hand (to be actually useful)).


Adam


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#31

Stupid question of course, but Dash/Zeal already have Coldfusion docs.
Couldn’t that be duped and then remove stuff Lucee doesn’t support and add
additional stuff Lucee does support?
Seems like a quicker way to get a nice documentation set for Dash/Zeal.

And could possibly become the basis for the content on the full docs
website too.

(although there’s push back as to whether this should be automated (to save
developer time), or done by hand (to be actually useful)).On 18 February 2015 at 09:34, Risto <@Risto> wrote:


Adam


#32

Sorry, maybe need to add a little more to that, you can have custom page
templates (as Adam’s suggests - very good idea), integrates with JIRA, has
a Q&A plugin (Stackoverflow style), different spaces for different types of
documents, e.g. Installation guides, language syntax, etc… Also there is
a ton of access controls, etc… as well so it could be highly customised
towards the communities requirements.

Kind regards,

Andrew
about.me http://about.me/andrew_dixon
mso http://www.mso.net - Lucee http://lucee.org - MemberOn 17 February 2015 at 23:53, Andrew Dixon <@Andrew_Dixon> wrote:

As we are using BitBucket and JIRA is coming along (soon I believe) can I
put forward the suggestion of using Confluence (
https://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence/) which as an open source
project we can get for free (
https://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence/pricing) and Atlassian will
even host it for us on their “cloud” solution.

Kind regards,

Andrew
about.me http://about.me/andrew_dixon
mso http://www.mso.net - Lucee http://lucee.org - Member

On 17 February 2015 at 23:41, Adam Cameron <@Adam_Cameron1> wrote:

On 18 February 2015 at 10:49, Dominic Watson <@Dominic_Watson> wrote:

Point well made re Association steer. I’ll push to bring documentation
up in the next association meeting (which are regular). By then, the chief
concern (the website) should be well under way or in an acceptable place.

My point of bringing up Dash is that, in these early stages, I think
Lucee would do well to design a documentation system that is easily ported
and built with different distributions in mind. JSON endpoint for the
reference docs for example? Hell yeah. Let people build whatever plugins
they need for whatever tooling they are using and do it without duplication
of effort and computing power. Make editing the source of this
documentation easy. If on BitBucket, there are inline editing tools, give
people sufficient instructions on how to make a pull request. Not quite as
easy as direct inline editing of a wiki page, but far more powerful and
useful.

Keep the ideas and links coming at this point I say, while influence can
still be had. Getting the docs “right” will be a huge win.

Nice one Dom.

If you’ll just let me push for human-written (as opposed to automated)
docs some more.

If “we” were to come up with a decent template for a function / tag doc
wiki page, then we can facilitate humans maintaining the content (big win)
and make it reasonably easy to then reduce that back to a JSON treatment
which is publicly exposed for other people to generate their Dash docs,
Sublime Text plug-ins, docs shipped in Lucee Admin etc.

Speaking for myself: I’ll fix docs provided I can click a button and type
the fix in and submit it. I won’t edit an XML or a JSON file. And I sure
as shit won’t fork stuff, do pull reqs etc simply to help someone with
their docs. Quite simply because this is the 21stC, and computers are
supposed to serve the humans, not the other way around. The UI for data
entry should suit the “U” in “UI”, and that is a person.


Adam


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#33

Agree with Adam and Dominic. Seems some research and discussion (started
here) would be beneficial before jumping into a solution.

If it’s easy to update I believe more people will. Wiki edits are easy -
for example FW/1. Click. Edit. Save. Done.

If I have to pull code, edit, submit a merge request etc. that
unfortunately probably is not going to happen.

Not sure why we have to reinvent the wheel here - what are other languages
doing for docs??

Never heard of Dash/Zeal before but that looks incredibly useful!!

Jim>


#34

As we are using BitBucket and JIRA is coming along (soon I believe) can I
put forward the suggestion of using Confluence (
https://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence/) which as an open source
project we can get for free (
https://www.atlassian.com/software/confluence/pricing) and Atlassian will
even host it for us on their “cloud” solution.

Kind regards,

Andrew
about.me http://about.me/andrew_dixon
mso http://www.mso.net - Lucee http://lucee.org - MemberOn 17 February 2015 at 23:41, Adam Cameron <@Adam_Cameron1> wrote:

On 18 February 2015 at 10:49, Dominic Watson <@Dominic_Watson> wrote:

Point well made re Association steer. I’ll push to bring documentation up
in the next association meeting (which are regular). By then, the chief
concern (the website) should be well under way or in an acceptable place.

My point of bringing up Dash is that, in these early stages, I think
Lucee would do well to design a documentation system that is easily ported
and built with different distributions in mind. JSON endpoint for the
reference docs for example? Hell yeah. Let people build whatever plugins
they need for whatever tooling they are using and do it without duplication
of effort and computing power. Make editing the source of this
documentation easy. If on BitBucket, there are inline editing tools, give
people sufficient instructions on how to make a pull request. Not quite as
easy as direct inline editing of a wiki page, but far more powerful and
useful.

Keep the ideas and links coming at this point I say, while influence can
still be had. Getting the docs “right” will be a huge win.

Nice one Dom.

If you’ll just let me push for human-written (as opposed to automated)
docs some more.

If “we” were to come up with a decent template for a function / tag doc
wiki page, then we can facilitate humans maintaining the content (big win)
and make it reasonably easy to then reduce that back to a JSON treatment
which is publicly exposed for other people to generate their Dash docs,
Sublime Text plug-ins, docs shipped in Lucee Admin etc.

Speaking for myself: I’ll fix docs provided I can click a button and type
the fix in and submit it. I won’t edit an XML or a JSON file. And I sure
as shit won’t fork stuff, do pull reqs etc simply to help someone with
their docs. Quite simply because this is the 21stC, and computers are
supposed to serve the humans, not the other way around. The UI for data
entry should suit the “U” in “UI”, and that is a person.


Adam


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#35

Yes, support fort Dash would be awesome!Am Dienstag, 17. Februar 2015 12:51:24 UTC+1 schrieb Nando Breiter:

  • 1 on the Dash suggestion! In addition to making the Lucee docs
    conveniently accessible, it might also help introduce Lucee to a broad
    audience of developers.

#36

Why doesn’t someone who wants this format actually put their hand up and *do

something about it*?

Well, partly because I would miss your rants about this… :slight_smile:
Point well taken.


#37

Let’s focus on getting a main docs site of some description sorted out
first.

Depending on how that is done, someone can run a side project to convert
that to being Dash-ready. Having looked at scraping the CF9 docs from the
Adobe site, it was structured well enough to just use CFHTTP and JSoup to
extract the content into standardised JSON files, from which point it won’t
me very difficult to covert to Dash’s format. So similar can be easily
enough done from Lucee’s docs when they’re done. Or as a first step,
someone could do what Mark’s done with the Railo source in the past to
generate the content for the Railo Docs site.

This does not have to be the business of The Lucee Association though (and
shouldn’t be).

Why doesn’t someone who wants this format actually put their hand up and do
something about it
?–
Adam

On 18 February 2015 at 06:59, <@lutz> wrote:

Yes, support fort Dash would be awesome!

Am Dienstag, 17. Februar 2015 12:51:24 UTC+1 schrieb Nando Breiter:

  • 1 on the Dash suggestion! In addition to making the Lucee docs
    conveniently accessible, it might also help introduce Lucee to a broad
    audience of developers.


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#38
  • 1 on the Dash suggestion! In addition to making the Lucee docs
    conveniently accessible, it might also help introduce Lucee to a broad
    audience of developers.On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Dominic Watson <@Dominic_Watson wrote:

What might also be worth looking at is http://kapeli.com/dash. Offline
documentation browsing and searching for Mac users. Compatibility with that
system would be a bonus.


#39

Adam, I wonder if it is because people don’t want to be duplicating effort.
As far as I can tell from what I have read here Mark Drew is already
working on a docs site and therefore it would seem silly to me (if I was
thinking of doing it) to do it as Mark is already (as far as I know) doing
it. If that is not the case then fine, Mark doesn’t have an obligation to
do it of course, but we still need some way of organising who is doing it
don’t we, or am I missing some sort of unwritten open source project
protocol?

Kind regards,

Andrew
http://about.me/andrew_dixonOn 17 February 2015 at 18:40, Adam Cameron <@Adam_Cameron1> wrote:

On Wednesday, 18 February 2015 07:31:35 UTC+13, lu...@lesener.de wrote:

Why doesn’t someone who wants this format actually put their hand up and *do

something about it*?

Well, partly because I would miss your rants about this… :slight_smile:
Point well taken.

You worry about the docs… I’ll worry about the rants. Deal?

:wink:


Adam


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#40

Andy Jarett and I made a Dash docset ages ago for the RailoDocs. Not too
hard to generate now from the the system, so I can have a look at that.

I have created the repo and put the first non-working cut of luceedocs.org
on it: https://github.com/cybersonic/luceedocs

If you have ideas and stuff, it’s hard to follow on the mailing list (time
differences, busyness) so just add a ticket and we can discuss it there.

MDOn Wednesday, February 18, 2015 at 11:49:50 AM UTC, Nando Breiter wrote:

My point of bringing up Dash is that, in these early stages, I think Lucee

would do well to design a documentation system that is easily ported and
built with different distributions in mind.

I could be mistaken regarding the current ACF11 docset, but I remember
that the Dash developer had noted that the ACF documentation was difficult
and time consuming to import into Dash. If he can’t automate the process,
then I would assume that the imported docset would go stale (in our case,
perhaps rather quickly, since we’ll all soon be continuously improving the
Lucee docs :slight_smile: